In so many ways, HBO’s series Girls is like nothing else on television. Made up of parts that are terrific and groundbreaking while also frustrating and challenging, the Lena Dunham-created series is one that we can’t stop talking about. And with the recent episodes stepping even further outside of the boundaries of traditional TV comedy, we thought it was the perfect time to bring together a group of top TV Critics to discuss what’s working, what’s not and, of course, whether Dunham’s frequent nudity on the show is a good or bad thing...or is that not even the point?
Our TV Critics this time out are: Maureen Ryan(Television Critic, Huffington Post), Trish Bendix (Managing Editor, AfterEllen.com), Damian Holbrook (Senior Writer,TV Guide Magazine), Shaunna Murphy (TV editor, Hollywood.com) and our own Jim Halterman.
In the "Bad Friend" episode, Hannah says to Elijah (while high on coke) that her greatest dream (and nightmare) is to make love to herself. Then we get an episode like "One Man's Trash" where the entire show is devoted to Hannah's liaison with Patrick Wilson. (We'll get more to that specific episode in the next question.) Is the show becoming too self-indulgent? Or should we embrace its non-traditional-ness?
Mo Ryan: Given that the show is largely about Hannah's quest to see beyond her limited, narcissistic worldview, I'm often OK with the amount of cluelessness and selfishness on display. The Patrick Wilson episode may have had the quality of a daydream at times, but I also embrace the fact that episodes are going to vary -- they're not all going to have the exact same structure and tone. Having said that, there are times when the show veers too wildly into clichéd or problematic areas (more on that below). But I loved the Wilson episode and thought it was one of the better outings so far in Season 2.
Trish Bendix: Firstly, I'm glad it was a straight woman saying she wanted to have sex with herself, as it's a myth that lesbians are that narcissistic and that's why they want to sleep with a carbon copy of themselves. I find Hannah a very real character, someone who is imperfect and fun to watch. She's relatable at times, and completely abhorable at others. All the characters in Girls are, because that's life. We all have traits that are admirable and others that are less so. With the characters of Girls, they are just more loosely defined. The writers aren't putting out there THIS IS A BAD MAN or THIS IS A GOOD GIRL. Thank God.
Damian Holbrook: That "Trash" episode infuriated me. The "look at me"-ism on display was way beyond the show's normal celebration of self-indulgence because it didn't feel like it honored the character's need for love, but rather Dunham's expectation that we accept even the most ludicrous twist at her creative hand. Were we watching her act out some fantasy? Because God knows, that storyline was beyond believable.
Hannah (Lena Dunham) steps into the life of a stranger (Patrick Wilson) - love it or hate it?
Let's talk "One Man's Trash." Definitely a departure episode for the show. Did you love it or hate it? Why?
Mo Ryan: Loved it, because it was like a fully realized short film or an evocative short story that took the story and the characters to new, fun and difficult places. Hannah entered a world she doesn't normally live in and had a complete experience there, and the show might not directly reference that experience again, but it'll certainly figure into her growth. The episode economically and entertainingly told the story of a relationship in under half an hour, and I actually felt for both characters. Wilson's character was obviously both lonely and unable to truly get beyond his detachment, and Hannah had to embrace an unexpected realization, i.e., she's every bit as conventional as she feared she might be, despite the fact that she's desperate to be seen as an urban bohemian. Although I think Wilson's amazing performance was in a class above Dunham's, it was still a well-written, well-performed, well-directed episode that examined some interesting ideas about aspiration, intimacy and acceptance.
Shaunna Murphy: I loved it. It was like watching the realistic lifespan of a relationship all in a half hour. I bought everything that was happening — from her blunt assertiveness charming him into the bedroom, to that look of painful happiness when she was eating that orange or tangerine or whatever. Seeing Hannah completely confident and comfortable in her own skin — particularly in the ping-pong scene — not trying to please anyone but herself or be anyone but herself, was wonderful. Then the narcissist came back, and it was all over. I've watched it 3 times, and hey, I'm busy.
Jim Halterman: Mixed, to be honest. While I didn't mind it being a 'departure' and the idea of stepping outside of your own life and being open to new experiences, I couldn't help but think that it felt less honest and real than the show usually does. I'm fine with Hannah having a fling with Patrick Wilson, but I found myself constantly taken out of the episode and thinking about the creative choices that were being made...maybe that was the point but it didn't make it an overall enjoyable episode.
Do you think we're supposed to actually LIKE Hannah and her friends? Or is that not the point of the show?
Mo Ryan: I don't think we're supposed to like them, I think we're supposed to be interested in them and what they do with each other and with the various friends, acquaintances and relatives in their lives. I'm OK with that -- I don't have to like the characters I follow, I just have to be intrigued enough to stick with them. Sometimes Girls sorely tests my patience in this regard (don't start me on Booth Jonathan, please. My blood pressure can't take it.)
Trish Bendix: I think we're supposed to like parts of them and find ourselves in parts of them, whether that's the good or the bad ones. I find it very real. Even the best people in your life can have terrible traits or make bad decisions. It's inevitable, and I am thankful Girls doesn't wrap up every problem and storyline in a big red bow and a hug.
Shaunna Murphy: Even though I'm a 20-something, I'm now LATE enough to acknowledge that people of that age are not always likable. When you're "finding yourself" it can be really tough to factor in other people. They're all selfish and most of them are pretty unhappy, so it's easy to become exasperated by them at the very least. But I love the honest portrayal of painful narcissism that Lena has created. It's real. It's sad. It's that time in our lives when our parents/friends might not always want to call us back, because we're always ranting about our own problems.
The Girls (l-r): Dunham, Zosia Mamet, Jemima KirkeandAllison Williams
Favorite Girls character? Least favorite?
Damian Holbrook: LOVE Marnie. She doesn't know what she doesn't know yet, but she is learning and maintains a level of humor that saves her from playing victim. Least fave is probably Adam because he's an absolute moron and has no idea how to treat a woman with respect unless he is getting something out of it.
Shaunna Murphy: Whenever Shoshanna shows up, she lights up the screen. Maybe it's because she's the least narcissistic and least unhappy, but I just adore her. Also, if I accidentally smoked crack, I'd probably rant on workout class politics, too. And I might get slack for saying this, but this season my least favorite character is Adam. His interactions with Ray this week get a pass, but he's become this silly caricature that does not exist whatsoever in real life. I watch this show to see real people. He doesn't fit the bill.
Jim Halterman: While Shoshanna is just a breath of fresh and kooky air, the writer in me relates to Hannah, who may be looking at things a bit differently than everyone, but she’s still just as much of a mess as anyone else.
The episodes with Andrew Rannells earlier in the season had a spark that seems to be missing in the episodes he is not in. Do we need more Elijah, like, NOW?
Mo Ryan: I enjoyed Elijah, but he and Hannah together can be a lot to take. I say Elijah and Jessa find a bisexual sugar daddy or momma and move in together and bitch about other people down all day long. I'd watch the hell out of that show. I smell spinoff!
Trish Bendix: I love Andrew Rannells and I thought Elijah was a really great character in terms of what his relationship was to Hannah and his hook up with Marnie. I'm happy to see gay on this show, for sure, especially the complications that come from identifying yourself as one way and what it means for someone else - how Hannah was OK with Elijah not being attracted to her because he was gay, but not OK with him not being attracted to her in general. So much of who the characters are are defined by their relationships with the others. But, yes, I say more Elijah and a lesbian of any kind, please.
Jim Halterman: I love me some Andrew Rannells and I liked that Elijah wasn’t just the gay sidekick. The liaison he had with Marnie was, again, real and unexpected but I bought it and I loved how it ended up speaking to the Marnie/Hannah relationship (as well as the Elijah/Hannah relationship). Whether The New Normal makes it to a second season or not, I have a feeling we haven’t seen the last of Elijah.
Hannah gave Elijah the boot after finding out he slept with Marnie. (Come back Andrew Rannells!)
What does the show say about men, primarily straight men? Whether it's Adam, Ray, Thomas-John, Sandy or Booth Jonathan, is the show anti-men?? Are they just idiots or are they realistic characterizations at least for these Girls?
Trish Bendix: I don't find the show anti-men. I don't think the characters are supposed to be admirable as much as they're supposed to be realistic, so they're on the same wave-length as the women. Everyone has their hang-ups; some worse than others. The only one I really dislike and comes off as an ultimate douche is Booth Jonathan, but I think everyone knows someone like him, someone who puts on a show to have all the right things and people surround him but is deeply unhappy on the inside. And then you just feel bad for a guy like that.
Damian Holbrook: I feel that the male characters are as equally flawed as the females. Being a woman-centric show, the guys can look like tools or jesters because they are primarily the ones causing chaos in the womens' lives, but I promise you, if this show was called "Guys" and the same stories and beats were being told from the mens' point of view, some people would say the show was anti-women.
Shaunna Murphy: Well, straight men aren't exactly the focus of the show and I've never been one, but if I was I'm not sure I'd be too happy with the portrayal on Girls. (But like, come on — we dealt with years of Entourage.) But according to my friends, dating in the city in your early 20's is a nightmare, and the commitment-phobia found in characters like Booth Jonathan and the crippling negativity and depression found in Ray are totally realistic. However, Thomas-John, Booth, and Sandy were NOT well fleshed-out characters, and Booth was definitely a flat-out caricature. (Though, to be fair, I knew a guy exactly like him who even has a similar TV project in Los Angeles.) And Adam is just a total freak. All in all, the show isn't anti-men, but it's not ABOUT them 90 percent of the time, either. It's about how their actions affect the Girls, and the things they do that Hannah and Marnie and Shoshanna are reacting to are real.
In an EMMY magazine interview, Dunham said 'the plot is in some ways incidental...and takes a back seat to each other character's emotional development." Does this make for a good show? Or could the show use a little more plot to drive the episodes?
Trish Bendix: I think it has proven to do well for the show. Like will Patrick Wilson ever show up again? Probably not. But does that mean it was an unnecessary episode? I don't think so. I think something like that could only come from an episode dedicated to the 36 hours or so Hannah spent with a handsome stranger who could offer her some luxuries that ultimately made her question her own identity and priorities. Someone she's known for a while, like Marnie or Jessa or Adam, couldn't give her that exact same revelation or us that same viewing experience.
Damian Holbrook: I like my shows to have both story and development. Otherwise, this is just us all doing Lena's naval-gazing for her.
Jim Halterman: I’m okay when plots are simple or don’t really go anywhere but I still want there to be a point of some kind. I don’t mind the departure episodes and the one thing I liked about the Jessa-centric episode last week was that we learned more about Jessa and I sympathized with her for the first time. She’s still not my favorite but I like that I understand her a bit more now.
The men of Girls (Alex Karpovsky (Ray, l) and Adam Driver (Adam)) are just as complex as the women.
Lena Dunham's frequent nudity on the show. Fabulous statement or off-putting and distracting?
Trish Bendix: Fabulous. Why the hell should Lena not be naked when she's having sex or showering or dancing or in her home? She has that kind of confidence as a character that f*** yeah she'd play ping pong topless. It's true to who she is.
Mo Ryan: Oh boy, I'm sure dissertations are being written on that topic even as we speak…but there is one thing that I can say about the nudity on the show: I'm absolutely glad that Dunham has begun this debate and isn't backing away from it. My theory is that most of us -- male and female -- have deep-seated body issues and looks-based insecurities. The movie and TV industries, for the most part, tells us that men should look a certain way and women should look a very specific way as well. We're trained to have certain expectations about the bodies we see, and it's easy to fall into criticizing ourselves and others if they don't meet this arbitrary standard…though there's been a lot of stupidity and ugliness displayed at times during those debates, I'm glad they're happening. They need to.
Jim Halterman: I applauded when we saw Hannah get naked in Season 1 but the “One Man’s Trash” episode pushed the limits for me. A love-making scene is one thing where seeing nudity is a part of what’s happening but when it’s part of a ping-pong match? I found myself pulled out of the show and thinking that it was a step too far. But, again, maybe that was the point. I mean, truth be told, as a gay man I didn’t mind seeing Patrick Wilson in his boxers swing his paddle (so to speak) but seeing Dunham doing the same thing made me think the point was getting in the way of the show…but, again, that may be the entire point.
What is Girls' biggest strength? Biggest weakness?
Mo Ryan: Its biggest strength is its originality -- there are very few shows out there with this kind of individual voice, look and mind-set. We need more shows that embrace a different kinds of voices and the auteurist vision exemplified by Girls and Louie. Its biggest weakness is a lack of consistency. I love both "Girls" and "Enlightened," and I'm certainly not here to pit them against each other (everyone should watch both shows!). Having said that, "Enlightened" has a consistency of tone, vision and voice that is breathtaking and leads to wonderfully rich, evocative scenes and moments. Girls gets there occasionally, but it's not consistently on that level yet.
Trish Bendix: Girls’ biggest strength is the ability to make each character three-dimensional and give viewers a revolving sense of right and wrong. It's a show that makes you think and talk and argue, and that's the kind of show I want to spend my time on. It's biggest weakness is the lack of diversity, obviously. It's New York - we need a little more color and queer if it's going to be as real as it otherwise seems to be.
Damian Holbrook: Biggest strength is the solid casting. None of the girls are cookie-cutter and the guys, while all seemingly unable to master the fine art of shaving, look different and bring different energies to their roles. Weakness? It tends to make anyone above 30 look like the worst people in the world.
With these last few episodes, are you more or less a fan of the show moving forward?
Mo Ryan: I think the show has had some growing pains this season, but I'm always going to be on board, unless a meteor hits the earth. And if it does, as Mark Harris pointed out, Twitter will find a way to blame Lena Dunham. https://twitter.com/MarkHarrisNYC/status/302803231640276992
Trish Bendix: Fan, all the way. I would like some more gay, but mostly because I think Lena could do great things with a lesbian character, things we haven't seen on TV yet. I trust her!
Damian Holbrook: More of a fan. The show challenges me, like most real relationships, to accept these people for where they are in their lives and to practice patience. I am also fascinated to see how the three leading ladies evolve as actresses and characters as things get more "lifey" for them on the show.
Shaunna Murphy: More! I wasn't a huge fan until the Bushwick episode last year. Plus, I just moved from Los Angeles to New York so it all just feels so appropriate.
Jim Halterman: Even though some episodes I love and others I don’t, I’m going to watch each and every one of them.
Girls airs Sundays at 9pm on HBO.
